Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 143

Thread: Obamacare, Medicare, Social Security

  1. #1
    Kim Yonkee's Avatar
    Kim Yonkee is offline Ward? Don't you think you were a little bit hard on the Beaver?
    Join Date
    May 1998
    Location
    Just beyond the edge of Eureky
    Posts
    9,603

    Default Obamacare, Medicare, Social Security

    I've ranted about the Affordable Care Act, at length. My complaint has always been, "Yeah but. All we're doing here is forcing people to buy products from the same people who caused the problems in the first place."

    Supporters of the ACA have replied, "Yeah but. This is the only way we'll ever get to a better national healthcare system."

    I've worried that it isn't going to go that way at all. This author explains why---better than I ever could. Here's a snip, but the whole thing is worth a read:


    The smartest thing yet written about the botched rollout of the Affordable Care Act’s federal exchange program is a post by Mike Konczal of the Roosevelt Institute at his “Rortybomb” blog at Next New Deal. Konczal makes two points, each of which deserves careful pondering.

    The first point is that to some degree the problems with the website have been caused by the overly complicated design of Obamacare itself...

    Konczal’s second point is even more important — the worst features of Obamacare are the very features that conservatives want to impose on all federal social policy: means-testing, a major role for the states, and subsidies to private providers instead of direct public provision of health or retirement benefits. This is not surprising, because Obamacare’s models are right-wing models — the Heritage Foundation’s healthcare plan in the 1990s and Mitt Romney’s “Romneycare” in Massachusetts.

    This point is worth dwelling on. Conservatives want all social insurance to look like Obamacare. The radical right would like to replace Social Security with an Obamacare-like system, in which mandates or incentives pressure Americans to steer money into tax-favored savings accounts like 401(k)s and to purchase annuities at retirement, with means-tested subsidies to help the poor make their private purchases. And most conservative and libertarian plans for healthcare for the elderly involve replacing Medicare with a totally new system designed along the lines of Obamacare, with similar mandates or incentives to compel the elderly to buy private health insurance from for-profit corporations...

    Will the flaws of Obamacare really hurt the right and help center-left supporters of universal social insurance? I doubt it.


    To begin with, this implies a willingness of the right to acknowledge that Obamacare, in its design, is essentially a conservative program, not a traditional liberal one. But we have just been through a presidential campaign in which Mitt Romney, who as governor of Massachusetts presided over the creation of the most important model for Obamacare, rejected any comparison of Romneycare with Obamacare. What is more, instead of agreeing with Konczal that the flaws of Obamacare are shared by most conservative entitlement reform proposals, conservatives are likely simply to denounce Obamacare as “socialism” or “collectivism” while promoting their own, Obamacare-like replacements for Social Security and Medicare, with blithe indifference to their own inconsistency.

    Nor are progressives likely to press the point in present or future debates. Unlike conservatives, who are right-wingers first and Republicans second, all too many progressives put loyalty to the Democratic Party — most of whose politicians, including Obama, are not economic progressives — above fidelity to a consistent progressive economic philosophy. These partisan Democratic spinmeisters are now treating Obamacare, not as an essentially conservative program that is better than nothing, but as something it is not — namely, a great victory of progressive public policy on the scale of Social Security and Medicare.

    In doing so, progressive defenders of Obamacare may inadvertently be digging the graves of Social Security and Medicare.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/10/28/what...cial_security/
    W.T. Focker's Discount Outlet
    2100 E. Van Buren
    Eureka Springs, AR
    Open Th-Fri-Sat-Sun-Mon


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Posts
    16,637

    Default

    and yet some still wonder why there are those against ACA.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    In my own little world
    Posts
    3,888

    Default

    The question JET is "why are YOU against the ACA"?

    I am against it because it is NOT socialistic enough. I like Medicare. I like Social Security. I like Medicaid. I would like very much to see healthcare for all Americans in the same mold. It is efficient, it is fair, and it has been a proven workable model in every other civilized country in the world.

    As Kim's article points out, the ACA follows every other Program the right wishes to institute. Privatization of Social Security and Medicare are centerpieces of Republican policy wishes.

    So the real question is "how can you hate the ACA so vehemently, yet support the party that wants to do EXACTLY THE SAME THING to every other social program we have?

    Simple question, got an answer?
    Who am I? Why am I here? -Admiral James Stockdale-

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Posts
    16,637

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermit of Hogscald View Post
    The question JET is "why are YOU against the ACA"?

    I am against it because it is NOT socialistic enough. I like Medicare. I like Social Security. I like Medicaid. I would like very much to see healthcare for all Americans in the same mold. It is efficient, it is fair, and it has been a proven workable model in every other civilized country in the world.

    As Kim's article points out, the ACA follows every other Program the right wishes to institute. Privatization of Social Security and Medicare are centerpieces of Republican policy wishes.

    So the real question is "how can you hate the ACA so vehemently, yet support the party that wants to do EXACTLY THE SAME THING to every other social program we have?

    Simple question, got an answer?
    What answer would you like? I can't afford the new insurance? I've without insurance for some years now? I've been a self pay and dealing with it? For me, do you get that? This has nothing to do with any party. It's a good talking point but has nothing to do with my feeling and worries about ACA. You do know there is one hell of a chance that this thing is gonna fail. Blame me/ GWB/ GOP or the groundhog. I know the blame is coming. If and when that comes? Thoughts about people that may not be able to buy insurance? There will be a lot. Any thoughts about thousands of people that have lost their insurance already? Yea, I know. They just need to take what is offered. Any thoughts about you party wanting to delay the ACA start? That will happen
    I'm sure you and others are very comfortable with the gov providing what you need. I'm just not that kind of guy. I'm the guy helping pay for those that suck the system dry. Do I want insurance for the masses? I sure do. For me? I want insurance I can afford to pay for myself without the taxpayers having to pony up part of the money. Now, If's that wrong? I'm guilty. There is no free lunch. This ACA just shifts the burden from the taxpayer in one way to another. Any thoughts on how this ACA will be funded if the required numbers don't sign up?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    In my own little world
    Posts
    3,888

    Default

    You must be confusing me with someone who supports the ACA. I just don't know how to make it any clearer. Maybe caps will help.

    I AM A SUPPORTER OF SINGLE PAYER GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE!

    Single payer addresses every concern you express. It give you affordable healthcare. It insures all those others who can't afford healthcare. No one is ever "dropped" from single payer.

    You look at single payer and scream socialist! I look at it as national insurance. But, and most importantly, WE KNOW IT WORKS. It's not like running up a trial balloon and then trying to fix the holes later. Those countries who have socialized medicine have lower cost (about half of what we pay), better outcomes, and leverage to control costs. This is based on figures from the WHO.

    Yes, there is no free lunch, no matter what system you choose. Healthcare was not free before, it is not free under the ACA, it is not free under single-payer, it is not free when you pay for it out of pocket. I really don't need you to tell me there is no free lunch, what I prefer to do is get the best lunch possible at the lowest possible price.

    You don't need to convince me that the ACA is a trainwreck. I have been opposed to the private model all along. It is a Republican invention, a trainwreck that the Republican party wishes to inflict on SS and Medicare. I am the wrong one to ask about solutions to the bodies on the tracks, because I am one who recommended all along we take a different railroad.

    The difference between you and me is that I can present a viable alternative. I can defend that alternative and provide statistical evidence to support my argument.

    What you've got is nothing more than whining and complaining. But in all fairness, I will ask the question AGAIN (fruitlessly I am sure).

    If you don't like the ACA and you will never accept evil socialized medicine, what EXACTLY is your alternative? Conservatives offered Romneycare, Liberals offered single-payer, we got Romneycare rebranded. The very people who proposed it now hate it with a passion. You seem to like nothing and have no alternative to offer. Is it your contention there is NO SOLUTION except that only those who have the cash should have healthcare?
    Who am I? Why am I here? -Admiral James Stockdale-

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Posts
    16,637

    Default

    YES I KNOW ABOUT what you support. Anything some else has to foot the bill. You've made that clear. More than once.
    Blame me or who ever you want. Blame the model on the GOP. Blame it on Elvis. If things ever get to the point that we have to rely on the likes of you or me for answers? The screwing is over and we are knocked up.

    Does your employer pay part of your insurance? Will you have to find new insurance? Do you have insurance now?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Eureka Springs, Arkansas, United States
    Posts
    2,941

    Default

    Until I figured out that Obama was a fairly far right wing republican pretending to be progressive (fairly early in his first term when he continued to hand taxpayer money to the banksters) I had hope that he would try to do a good, honorable single payer option, but that hope disappeared when he adopted the sleazy Republican "Give the money to Big Business" plan. I am glad that SOMETHING was done to address the situation, but this was a GOP brainchild, which is never good for the people.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Posts
    16,637

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidwindows View Post
    Until I figured out that Obama was a fairly far right wing republican pretending to be progressive (fairly early in his first term when he continued to hand taxpayer money to the banksters) I had hope that he would try to do a good, honorable single payer option, but that hope disappeared when he adopted the sleazy Republican "Give the money to Big Business" plan. I am glad that SOMETHING was done to address the situation, but this was a GOP brainchild, which is never good for the people.
    Then please tell me why the dems are supporting it? It's just not natural.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    In my own little world
    Posts
    3,888

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JET View Post
    YES I KNOW ABOUT what you support. Anything some else has to foot the bill. You've made that clear. More than once.
    Blame me or who ever you want. Blame the model on the GOP. Blame it on Elvis. If things ever get to the point that we have to rely on the likes of you or me for answers? The screwing is over and we are knocked up.

    Does your employer pay part of your insurance? Will you have to find new insurance? Do you have insurance now?
    I have none of these problems, because I already have evil socialized medicine and I love it. I am "retired" so my employer pays nothing. Never has. Obviously I will not have to find new insurance. Yes, I have insurance now (medicare) and it is NOT FREE, I pay for part B every month and so far my premiums have far exceeded my benefits (fair enough, if I get seriously ill, it will balance out and then some). But thanks for casting me into the 47%, even though at this point I have paid in far more than I have taken out.

    So, now I have answered your questions, want to take a stab at mine or will you be content just calling me a few more names?

    Nevermind, it was a rhetorical question as has been proven to me numerous times.
    Who am I? Why am I here? -Admiral James Stockdale-

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Posts
    16,637

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermit of Hogscald View Post
    I have none of these problems, because I already have evil socialized medicine and I love it. I am "retired" so my employer pays nothing. Never has. Obviously I will not have to find new insurance. Yes, I have insurance now (medicare) and it is NOT FREE, I pay for part B every month and so far my premiums have far exceeded my benefits (fair enough, if I get seriously ill, it will balance out and then some). But thanks for casting me into the 47%, even though at this point I have paid in far more than I have taken out.

    So, now I have answered your questions, want to take a stab at mine or will you be content just calling me a few more names?

    Nevermind, it was a rhetorical question as has been proven to me numerous times.
    Nope, I'm done. You told us what it's all about.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •